How The Head Of Obsidian Went From Superfan To Ceo

Welcome to Decoder! This is Casey Newton, laminitis and editor of Platformer and cohost of nan Hard Fork podcast. I’ve had a batch of nosy guest-hosting a fewer episodes of Decoder while Nilay is retired connected parental time off this summer. If you listened to nan past mates of Monday shows, you cognize I’ve been doing a bid pinch founders who are focused connected productivity.

This is my 3rd and, sadly, past clip joining nan show during nan break, but I’m very excited astir this episode. Today I’m talking pinch Steph Ango, who is nan CEO of Obsidian.

Obsidian is simply a note-taking and productivity app that fits into a akin “second brain” abstraction to Notion, nan CEO of which I interviewed present connected Decoder past week. But Obsidian differentiates itself pinch a really different attack to its business. It still wants to beryllium your full individual knowledge guidelines — to clasp each your notes, links, files, and different accusation — but it useful successful a very different way.

In Obsidian, files are Markdown-based, stored locally connected your ain devices, and wholly free to use. You’ll perceive Steph opportunity that he doesn’t moreover cognize really galore users Obsidian has aliases really sticky nan package is, which is much aliases little unheard of among startups that I cover.

Obsidian does complaint a subscription interest for entree to definite features, including cross-device sync, type history, and web publishing. But it’s a exemplary that feels decidedly old-fashioned, for package that’s trying to support up pinch nan existent world, and truthful I had to inquire him astir those decisions. 

Steph’s domiciled arsenic CEO is besides unusual, because though Obsidian is still a very young, very small, and very level organization, he’s really not 1 of nan founders. He joined successful 2023, erstwhile cofounders Shida Li and Erica Xu [SHOO] brought him successful based connected his acquisition pinch his erstwhile startup, Lumi. He was besides a immense Obsidian fan.

So I really wanted to inquire him astir that, too, because I suspected nan answers to nan large Decoder questions astir statement and decision-making were going to beryllium beautiful different for a Decoder guest. 

And successful 1 absorbing twist, I asked Steph why, erstwhile truthful galore of his competitors look to beryllium racing to worldly their productivity products pinch AI features, it didn’t look for illustration Obsidian was each excessively eager to travel suit. His answer, I thought, was beautiful illuminating. 

So that’s Obsidian CEO Steph Ango. Here we go.

This question and reply has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Steph Ango, you are nan CEO of Obsidian. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks, Casey. I’m gladsome to beryllium here.

What is Obsidian? How does it activity and who is it for?

If you really want to boil it down, Obsidian is simply a note-taking app. A batch of group usage it for penning their thoughts down, journaling. A batch of group are students who for illustration to way their advancement done school, aliases do their investigation notes. There are authors, book writers, large fans of RPGs who emotion to usage it. What makes Obsidian unsocial is that it benignant of useful for illustration Wikipedia, successful that nan halfway portion is simply a nexus betwixt your notes. So, if I was to constitute astir my acquisition coming successful my journal, I’d say, “I was connected nan Decoder podcast pinch Casey,” and each clip I mentioned thing I mightiness shape a nexus retired of “Decoder.”

It’s okay if that nexus is not pointing to thing yet, but later down nan road, I mightiness create a statement for Decoder because I want to way immoderate of nan absorbing interviews I’ve listened to connected that podcast. So complete time, your web of knowledge becomes greater and you person much nodes successful your Obsidian. Fundamentally, erstwhile you unfastened nan app, it useful a batch for illustration Apple Notes, Evernote, Notion, aliases immoderate different akin benignant of app retired there.

When you joined nan institution successful 2023, you said, “I can’t overstate really life-changing Obsidian has been for me. It has fundamentally improved nan measurement I think. I want to spot what happens if much group summation that superpower.” What do you consciousness for illustration is nan superpower that Obsidian gave you, and why did nary different products make you consciousness rather nan aforesaid way?

I’ve been penning notes and journaling for complete 20 years, and I’ve utilized a batch of different apps. This thought of reasoning astir nan world for illustration your ain individual Wikipedia was really powerful. I had benignant of kludged together a fewer different apps to make thing that benignant of worked that way.  A batch of Wiki-based package already existed, but astir of it was designed astir publishing a afloat Wiki to nan web arsenic opposed to utilizing it for your ain individual notes.

When it came out, nan founders of Obsidian, Shida [Li] and Erica [Xu], had already put successful nan level of polish that was not location successful nan glued together prototype that I had. It was instantly thing that made consciousness to me. It made consciousness besides because nan information is stored is successful this very durable format that group tin own, which is called Markdown. You get ace fans of Markdown and… for group who’ve ne'er heard of it earlier successful nan audience. I’m not judge who —

I deliberation we astir apt person a batch of Markdown users successful nan Decoder audience, but for those who person possibly not seen it yet, really would you picture it?

Basically, nan oldest record types we have, going backmost to nan 1960s, are plain matter files. Markdown takes nan thought of a plain matter file, which is conscionable earthy text, and allows you to adhd basal formatting. So, if you want immoderate matter to beryllium bold, a heading, a table, aliases a list, it allows you to usage elemental characters for illustration punctuation marks to bespeak what’s going to beryllium bold aliases italic, for example. 

The powerfulness present is that nan information is stored successful this very elemental format. So, we person this position astir your information that you tin clasp your information for a agelong clip and you, aliases your kids’ kids, your legacy, immoderate it is, will beryllium capable to publication it 100 years from now. Maybe nary of nan notes matter astatine all, aliases possibly they’ll beryllium curious. But what if that information could beryllium preserved complete nan agelong term? We deliberation that going backmost to immoderate of nan simplest formats that beryllium and giving you that power complete your information is much apt to persist complete time. So, that’s 1 of our philosophies.

Going backmost to your question, I was really excited astir nan principles coming together. To nan constituent of really it made maine deliberation differently, I deliberation erstwhile you person this conception of links and ideas that tin beryllium networked together, you tin commencement to shape much complicated, complex, aliases absorbing thoughts than you different could. I don’t cognize astir different people, but I tin only person 2 aliases 3 different ideas successful my mind astatine once. But if you tin commencement to create these small building blocks of ideas, you tin harvester them successful absorbing ways. Your ideas go these small Lego blocks that you tin interchange and operation together, truthful you tin commencement forming immoderate absorbing and analyzable thoughts.

I would emotion to perceive an illustration of erstwhile you felt for illustration you were capable to do that successful Obsidian. You’ve written online astir your note-taking practice. You described it for america a infinitesimal ago, talking astir really you support a regular diary and arsenic caller characters and ideas travel in, you’ll nexus them and build them up complete time. I’m funny astir that adjacent step. Is location a clip erstwhile each of that added up to fto you make thing you possibly wouldn’t person otherwise?

Well, location are nan projects I’m willing in. Even though I’m nan CEO of Obsidian, I spot it arsenic a intends to an end. I for illustration to write, truthful I constitute a batch of short essays connected my blog. A batch of nan essays came from marinating successful Obsidian, wherever I tin statement pinch myself whether an thought is bully aliases not. I person this effort called “Pain Is Information.” I was going done a beautiful reliable clip a fewer years back, and I publication this book by [Haruki] Murakami, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running. It’s this autobiographical communicative astir running, and I came crossed this quote… I’m trying to retrieve it connected nan fly, but it’s thing like, “When you motion up for a marathon, you cognize that you’re signing up for pain.” “Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.”

That thought was really absorbing to maine because I was going done a achy time. I was reasoning astir really rubbing your manus to a stove gives you a awesome that [doing] that’s a bad idea, but that’s information. So, I was starting to deliberation astir information, pain, and nan narration betwixt those things. You tin spot really these ideas are forming retired of bladed air, retired of different inspirations that I’m going through. And what I for illustration astir Obsidian is it gives you this spot to attack it successful a very freeform measurement and link different concepts you mightiness beryllium reasoning about. 

For maine it’s successful this philosophical realm, but for different group it mightiness beryllium pinch biology aliases connection learning. My partner speaks Chinese, and I’ve been wanting to study Chinese, truthful I’m starting to bring together these different ideas. I’m into woodworking and I’m ever learning caller skills, caller details, aliases caller devices that I mightiness want to use, and I’m doing investigation astir that. All of those things tin coexist wrong of this integer place, which is benignant of weird because you could person a relationship betwixt a woodworking tool, a metropolis I went to successful China, and nan conception Murakami was describing, each those things are conscionable ingredients successful this soup, and you could commencement to travel up pinch ideas that you conscionable wouldn’t person thought of otherwise. Maybe that’s enlightening.

Something that a batch of group worth astir Obsidian and akin apps is that they tin beryllium engines for serendipity. You stitchery strings successful nan mode you conscionable described, and past successful nan process of clicking backmost done your notes aliases utilizing different devices wrong nan app, you revisit ideas and they spark caller ones aliases you spot connections that you mightiness not person otherwise.

Definitely. I deliberation that 1 of nan benefits of this attack is that it’s rather freeform. What I’ve tally into pinch different devices aliases different approaches, for illustration a beingness journal, is that you’re rather constrained by nan truth that it’s conscionable pieces of insubstantial you flip through. It has nan limitation of being a 2D surface. Or, a batch of apps usage folders aliases tags, whereas present you don’t person to cognize what thing is going to beryllium astir until later erstwhile nan connections form. And you’re free to person 700 tabs unfastened wrong of Obsidian and beryllium doing this crazy, It’s Always Sunny mind mapping with nan reddish thread everywhere. It allows you to do that wherever thing pinch a much top-down level would make it much difficult.

You’re not a co-founder of Obsidian. You were brought successful arsenic CEO successful 2023. How did that travel about, and what were you brought successful to do?

The app came retired successful 2020, and I recovered retired astir it pinch nan first version. It was correct astatine nan opening of nan pandemic, and I deliberation each of america were going stir-crazy. There was this infinitesimal successful clip wherever a batch of absorbing devices popped up because everybody was like, “What americium I going to do pinch each this other free clip wherever I’m hanging retired astatine home?” So, I started utilizing it correct distant for nan reasons I described before. It made sense, and Obsidian is ace customizable, truthful you tin make plugins, you tin make themes, and you tin modify it successful really important aliases mini ways. I was conscionable starting to put each these organization things retired there. I was moving a different startup astatine nan time, and I was conscionable putting these things retired location because I was making them for myself and group started utilizing them.

Shida and Erica are astonishing engineers who met astatine nan University of Waterloo. They’re geniuses successful position of engineering and organization management. What I was bringing to nan array arsenic a organization personnel was a consciousness of creation and merchandise that they had a small little of. Because nan Obsidian organization is truthful strong, immoderate of nan things I was making were getting a batch of adoption, and I was collaborating pinch different group successful nan community. They recovered retired astir that and wanted to put a quote from maine connected their beforehand page. 

So, we started chatting, and past we started talking astir business. They started telling maine astir nan business exemplary and immoderate of nan challenges that they were dealing with. We conscionable kept talking for a mates years, and I was utilizing Obsidian each nan time. It was conscionable nan main app that I had. When I sold my erstwhile startup, Lumi, I started to deliberation what would beryllium my adjacent thing. I was reasoning astir building thing other aliases starting a caller company, and I conscionable was spending each my clip successful Obsidian utilizing nan app, and I realized I was having truthful overmuch nosy utilizing this tool. 

So, I sounded to them, “What if I could travel connected committee and thief you guys?” At first, it took nan style of statement work, moving pinch them arsenic an advisor and moving connected nan 1.0 merchandise that had this caller creation that I built. Shida is an unthinkable engineer, 1 of nan champion I’ve ever worked with, and eventually, he conscionable wanted to attraction connected that. It created this bully balance. We’re a really mini team. We are 7 full-time people, truthful there’s thing bully astir nan equilibrium of nan different strengths we each have. Everyone tin benignant of do everything, but astatine nan aforesaid time, each personification has their halfway strengths. 

For me, it’s astir design, consolidating nan existent principle of Obsidian and trying to pass it retired to nan world. Then, because we’re only 7 people, location are a batch of hats to beryllium worn, whether it’s accounting, legal, each these are random things. Also, I had a batch of acquisition moving startups, truthful I deliberation that was helpful.

You mentioned nan plugin ecosystem. It seems to maine that plugins person been 1 of nan main ways that Obsidian has grown, some successful its characteristic group and successful building features that person attracted caller users. What was nan root of plugins and really person they fueled nan company’s growth?

In a way, plugins are what let america to enactment mini because location are truthful galore capabilities that group want that are reasonably constrictive and will only beryllium useful to 1 percent aliases little of our personification base. You spot this each nan clip pinch apps that person been astir for a agelong time, wherever nan characteristic group conscionable keeps increasing and growing. Then nan app becomes bloated, slow, and difficult to usage because there’s conscionable excessively overmuch functionality successful there. 

For caller users, it becomes highly confusing. I deliberation initially, it was this protect move against having to instrumentality each these features, to fundamentally say, “Here, you spell do it.” And because it’s built connected web technologies for illustration JavaScript and CSS, a batch of group cognize really to build things for it because they cognize those languages. You don’t request to cognize Swift aliases beryllium a cross-platform app developer to cognize really to make a plugin. You tin make thing really elemental successful a matter of minutes aliases hours depending connected your level. 

So, I deliberation nan first reasoning was that this will let america to not build everything ourselves. But then, nan imaginative things group travel up pinch are ever pushing nan letter cover of what our API should beryllium capable to support and really nan level tin let moreover much flexibility. I mean, retired of a fewer 1000 plugins that exist, only a mini information that really make consciousness to beryllium successful nan halfway app. Some of them do extremity up becoming thing we notice, for illustration erstwhile 80 percent of nan personification guidelines is relying connected 1 plugin. 

For example, correct now we’re moving connected this point called Bases, which allows you to position your notes successful a database-type format, and location are a number of plugins that do thing for illustration that successful nan Obsidian community. So, it’s a awesome to america that this is really really important and should beryllium successful nan halfway app.

What are immoderate different plugins that person conscionable been really celebrated aliases took nan app successful unexpected but successful directions?

Some of nan astir celebrated ones are very simple. Somebody who’s connected nan squad today, Tony Grosinger, wrote this plugin called Advanced Tables, which was conscionable a measurement to simplify making tables successful Obsidian. We’re talking astir thing very basic, but rows and columns were difficult to do earlier on, and if you’re personification who wants to unrecorded wholly successful nan Markdown world, they’re benignant of tricky to make. We ended up hiring Tony, and he built that functionality alongside different developer who — fundamentally everyone we’ve hired aliases worked pinch was erstwhile a organization plugin writer aliases squad developer. That makes it really easy for america to commencement bringing nan correct group who are passionate astir Obsidian connected board. 

There are plugins astir theming, styling, changing fonts and colors. A batch of group bask that customizability and want to beryllium capable to make this diary abstraction their own. There are a batch of plugins that thief you merge pinch different services. So, if you want your almanac successful location aliases thing for illustration that, you tin do that. There are integrations into a cardinal different apps retired there. If you want to beryllium doing your tasks and to-do lists successful Obsidian, there’s a full bunch of plugins that thief you pinch that. The cool point astir that is if you’re willing successful Obsidian because you want to do world building for your RPG tabletop group, you tin do that and you don’t person to person nan full almanac functionality wrong of your Obsidian. You tin conscionable usage nan plugins that person to do pinch that.

Plugins were really nan first point that brought Obsidian to my attention. I’d been utilizing Roam Research, which I do in installments for inventing a batch of nan existent note-taking paradigm, but Obsidian conscionable developed overmuch faster acknowledgment to plugins. I’m funny what you did to pull those first developers. Was it arsenic elemental arsenic having a really bully API that was disposable early on? What was it that nan institution did?

I deliberation it’s a operation of things. One, for illustration I mentioned, is that nan languages and model are very elemental for anyone to use. Anyone who’s done immoderate benignant of web improvement would beautiful overmuch cognize really to build a plugin, truthful it’s very accessible to a batch of developers. 

The values of Obsidian, conscionable arsenic a axenic note-taking tool, are very aligned pinch what developers like. So, a batch of developers usage Obsidian arsenic their note-taking app of prime because it’s backstage and it uses this Markdown format arsenic nan halfway measurement to constitute text. Because it’s truthful customizable, it attracts developers and past developers usage it each time long. We person published APIs that beautiful overmuch let you to do thing pinch nan app, and there’s a batch of documentation. So, it’s that combination: a batch of developers are utilizing it, it’s easy to make nan plugins, and we added nan API very early on. If you person that itch, you tin scratch it very quickly. If Obsidian’s not moving nan measurement you want, you tin alteration it very fast.

Recently, I interviewed Ivan Zhao of Notion for Decoder. You mentioned Notion is different merchandise successful this abstraction that sometimes group mightiness take complete Obsidian. It strikes maine that while your products do immoderate of nan aforesaid things, they’re designed very differently. Notion is astir pixel-perfect polish and beautiful interface elements. Obsidian, by default, tin look a spot much for illustration a terminal. You return notes successful Markdown, and it has much of this DIY, almost hacker ethos. Is that intentional and do you deliberation it affects nan kinds of users you attract?

I deliberation nan basal quality betwixt Obsidian and Notion is that Notion is simply a unreality service. It’s an app that interfaces chiefly pinch package arsenic a service-type unreality service. You person to either beryllium successful your browser aliases connected an app, and you link to a root of truth that’s successful nan cloud. With Obsidian, each your information is local. So, if you’re not online —  if you’re connected a level aliases thing for illustration that — you ever person entree to your data. That quality shapes a full bunch of different things.

For example, it would beryllium really difficult to adhd plugins to Notion because it can’t make it easy to tally arbitrary codification connected its cloud-based platform, whereas pinch Obsidian, it’s beautiful easy. So, there’s this basal divided that occurs because of nan architecture. It’s nan aforesaid pinch things for illustration theming, design, and really overmuch personification interface customizability location is. I don’t cognize if this will make consciousness to anyone who’s listening, but erstwhile I was 11 aliases 12 years old, location was Winamp, Winamp 2 was coming out, and I was each astir making themes and things for Winamp, which was a euphony subordinate that you could customize.

It really whipped nan llama’s ass. I person to opportunity that.

Absolutely. I deliberation there’s a spot of that spirit successful Obsidian. Obsidian is rather celebrated pinch a batch of younger people, and I don’t cognize what it is. At that time, you person nan power and nan desire to person power complete your integer space, and Obsidian makes that easy. So successful that sense, we’re a spot little prescriptive astir what nan interface should look like, moreover though we’re trying to make it a small spot much approachable to still clasp infinite depth. It’s for illustration you’re going to nan beach: we want to make nan shallow waters a small much accessible for group who are coming into it, but past you tin aquatics arsenic acold arsenic you like, arsenic heavy arsenic you like, into nan complexity of Obsidian. Finding nan correct equilibrium betwixt those 2 things is rather challenging, and it’s thing we’re ever moving on.

As I mentioned, I utilized Roam, past I utilized Obsidian, and past I utilized Mem. Now I usage thing called Capacities. Obviously I person a immense problem. I’m moving connected it successful therapy. But I’m funny astir really sticky Obsidian is. It’s free to get started, but I ideate tons of group wantonness their vaults aft only creating a fewer free notes. What makes group time off and what makes group stay?

We really don’t cognize really galore users Obsidian has. We don’t cognize really sticky it is because we don’t person immoderate analytics. It’s very privacy-oriented, truthful we don’t way thing astir our users. We don’t cognize what abruptly causes personification to churn aliases whatever. We for illustration not to way those things. Also, nan information doesn’t person to beryllium exported. If Obsidian went retired of business someday, you would still person nan app connected your computer. Even if you chose not to usage it, you don’t moreover person to motorboat nan app. You don’t person to export anything. This is 1 of nan large issues group person had pinch different devices that person either gone retired of business aliases been acquired by backstage equity firms that commencement tightening nan screws and expanding nan pricing complete clip — you consciousness for illustration you’re locked successful and you can’t do thing astir it.

With Obsidian, your information is there. I deliberation nan feelings of state and information are paradoxically rather sticky because moreover though you person each your data, you could just… Personally, I’m perpetually editing my Obsidian files not successful Obsidian. I will usage codification editors and different devices to do wide modifications to hundreds of files. You tin tally Python scripts connected your data. You tin benignant of do thing because they’re conscionable files astatine nan extremity of nan day.

Just briefly, each record that is created successful Obsidian is simply a Markdown record that tin beryllium opened up successful fundamentally immoderate matter editor.

Yeah. So it’s not a database successful nan cloud. It’s not a database connected your machine location that different apps can’t access. It’s virtually conscionable a bunch of files that you tin move and alteration pinch immoderate app. So yes, it makes it a batch easier to time off nan app, but it besides paradoxically gives group comfortableness that they person that action astatine immoderate time. 

We’re not trying to beryllium Notion. Notion has raised hundreds of millions of dollars. I deliberation it’s amazing, particularly connected nan collaboration side. It has a batch of advantages that make nan app amended for definite things. We’re conscionable a mini team. Our attraction is to support making nan instrumentality amended and enactment small, arsenic agelong arsenic we’re making capable money to enactment afloat.

We’re not trying to return complete nan world. We’re not trying to beryllium nan adjacent Microsoft. That makes it a batch easier to make semipermanent decisions that we consciousness are amended for ourselves aliases for our users. It’s nan instrumentality that we want to usage each time long. So, it’s okay if group leave. And different group person different brains and different approaches to thinking, truthful possibly they should leave. Maybe that would beryllium amended for them.

Let maine inquire you astir 1 situation I’ve had utilizing devices for illustration this. I wrote a mates of years ago astir really I had spent years linking and tagging each my notes, reviewing them connected a beautiful regular basis, and still not emotion for illustration I was getting a ton of insights from that process. I was worried that these devices tin beryllium a substitute for reasoning alternatively than an enhancement because if you walk each time tending to your integer garden, you mightiness not walk arsenic overmuch clip conscionable stepping down nan thoroughfare and giving your encephalon nan chance to respire and ideate. Was I conscionable utilizing these devices incorrectly, aliases do you deliberation that productivity devices tin sometimes beryllium counterproductive for people?

I deliberation they tin sometimes beryllium designed pinch anti-patterns that are explicitly astir that. Some companies person metrics that they track, for illustration nan number of progressive users, but really do they specify active? So now they’re sending you notifications to punctual you to travel backmost to nan app truthful that you do immoderate nan point is. That’s portion of nan logic we’re not willing successful having immoderate of this information because we don’t really want to beryllium search our users successful this measurement aliases incentivizing them to create usage wherever nary is needed. If you usage Obsidian passim nan time and you person these random ideas you conscionable want to driblet wrong of your regular note, you should beryllium capable to do that and not get sucked into this point that’s trying to prosecute you. 

There are a batch of group who support trying caller apps and thing sticks for them aliases they get caught up successful nan statement and beautification of their notes. I deliberation that tin hap successful immoderate app. I perceive astir this, successful general, and I don’t cognize what nan origin is. My consciousness is that it has thing to do pinch nan apps unless they’re virtually trying to engagement-bait you successful these weird ways. I deliberation it’s benignant of an affliction of nan integer age. These things are truthful malleable that it scratches an itch that we person successful our encephalon to optimize. For definite group who emotion solving puzzles aliases doing Sudoku, it’s benignant of addictive successful a measurement that mightiness not beryllium nan astir healthy. 

I’m not precisely judge really to lick that. The measurement I effort to reside that, astatine slightest successful my individual life, is being very alert of really nan business of galore of these apps useful and really they’re trying to seizure your attraction and time. So, I’m ever disabling notifications for everything, trying to walk a batch of clip stepping successful nature, doing woodworking, cooking, and different activities that I find restorative. Then, that makes my Obsidian clip consciousness much rewarding, productive, and useful because — productive is not nan correct word. I conscionable person things to constitute about. I person a life that I’m trying to dissect. “Oh, what happened today?” aliases “What problem americium I trying to solve?” And if you don’t person those different things going on, past you don’t person thing to constitute about, and you’re now successful nan abstraction massaging something. This is astir apt much of a mobility for a scientist to solve, but I do spot it, and I don’t cognize what nan reply is necessarily.

Well, let’s inquire nan Decoder questions. You’ve mentioned that you person 7 full-time employees. How is Obsidian structured? That sounds for illustration a beautiful level structure.

We person 2 group who are moving connected organization related things afloat clip — fundamentally customer work and plugin review. One of nan ways that we standard is that we person very progressive communities connected Discord, Reddit, and elsewhere. There’s a batch of personification help, truthful users thief different users, which is bully because it intends that we don’t person to person arsenic galore customer work group connected staff. 

Then, we person 3 full-time engineers, me, and past Erica, who useful connected marketing, community, and different things. I suppose I’m nan only personification who’s a trained designer, truthful I extremity up doing a batch of UX design, trading related things, and our web-facing stuff. But successful caller years, I’ve besides taken connected more. I’ve picked up a batch of engineering skills and person been enjoying collaborating much connected nan method broadside arsenic well.

It sounds for illustration you’re giving yourself a batch of tasks. I would beryllium observant of that.

It’s okay. I was antecedently moving this startup that had 45 people. It was a very different thing. I was successful meetings each time long, each day, 10 hours a day. At Obsidian, we person 1 gathering per year, truthful my clip is very — 

Wow. Goals! You conscionable made a batch of group very suspicious correct now.

I deliberation it’s achievable. We usage Discord and our Slack balanced to chat arsenic a squad each nan time, and we’re successful location consistently talking. But successful position of synchronous meetings, it’s rather rare. I deliberation portion of it is because everyone’s a personification of nan app, knows what thing Obsidian-y feels like, and we mostly only person 1 aliases 2 goals astatine immoderate fixed time. So, it makes things rather self-motivated arsenic acold arsenic really nan squad functions.

Got it.

We’ve mentioned that Obsidian is unsocial successful a batch of ways. There’s nary signup requirement. You tin download and usage it for free. You guys don’t moreover cognize really galore users you have. People tin create an unlimited magnitude of notes. How is that sustainable for you?

Obsidian has a fewer different gross sources. One is Obsidian Sync. You astir apt want to usage Obsidian connected aggregate devices, truthful a phone, iPad, aliases computer. Because nan files are section to your device, you request a measurement to support those versions successful sync. You tin wholly sync your files utilizing Dropbox, iCloud, aliases Google Drive. There are galore different services retired there, but we make our Obsidian Sync service. We deliberation it’s nan champion 1 because it’s wholly integrated into nan app, and it has a fewer features for illustration type history. It’s end-to-end encrypted, truthful it’s overmuch much unafraid than a batch of nan different options by default. So, that is 1 of our awesome gross drivers. 

Publish is different work wherever you tin return your notes successful Obsidian and make a website retired of it. Then, we besides person a mates aid programs, which are Catalyst and our commercialized licence wherever users who want entree to nan beta versions aliases want to support america because they judge successful what we’re doing tin fundamentally nonstop america money. 

So, those are nan main ways that we make money. We person merch, but it’s really each breakeven, truthful we don’t really make immoderate profit from that. The point is, because nan squad is small, we don’t request mountains of cash. It’s conscionable america and immoderate computers, truthful it’s not for illustration there’s a ample magnitude of expenses. So it works.

Is it profitable?

Yes. It’s been profitable beautiful overmuch since time one. Since I deliberation moreover earlier Sync launched —  nan donation program, Catalyst, was nan first point that launched —  truthful it’s been profitable for 5 years.

Let maine inquire nan different large Decoder question. How do you make decisions astatine your company? Do you person a framework?

We person this manifesto that you tin look at. In a way, I deliberation that is our astir powerful driver because it describes our values, which are to make this app that’s ace private, ace customizable, and durable around  these files that hopefully you’ll beryllium capable to ain for nan remainder of your life. The organization is ever driving america towards nan adjacent large problem. 

For example, past twelvemonth 1 of nan large things we started moving connected was Web Clipper. A batch of different apps person thing for illustration it. I deliberation Evernote was astir apt nan first 1 that did a really bully occupation pinch this backmost successful nan day. Then, location are services for illustration Pocket that shut down recently. A batch of group successful nan organization were saying, “Hey, this is simply a awesome hole, a spread for Obsidian. All these different apps person awesome web clipping tools.” So, we built one. I deliberation that whether it’s done plugins aliases done conscionable wide complaining from nan compute community, we benignant of cognize what nan biggest gaps are. So, we ever person a wide thought of what we want to activity connected next. 

But there’s besides a self-motivated facet to it. Because our squad uses it each day, personification will go an advocator aliases champion for something. For example, I’m ever utilizing nan iOS app, and I’m ever coming crossed separator cases wherever I consciousness for illustration there’s excessively overmuch friction. There are different group connected our squad who usage Android, usage Linux, aliases who usage Obsidian successful a somewhat different way. It benignant of becomes your ngo internally. 

I don’t deliberation this is really that different from different companies. But it benignant of becomes your emblem to raise pinch nan remainder of nan squad and person them that this is an important problem that we person to activity connected now. Because nan statement is truthful flat, we tin make decisions very easily. It’s besides very easy for 1 personification to spell disconnected and prototype thing for a fewer days and show it to nan squad and say, “Hey, lick this problem. Help maine get this polished truthful we tin merchandise it.” 

So, that makes it really, really fun. And because we don’t person investors aliases immoderate top-down unit forcing immoderate deadlines, it’s very self-motivated. I’m judge location are tons of group successful nan organization who wish we would merchandise things faster, but we don’t want to springiness up nan freedom, flexibility, and joyousness that we person building it.

Let maine extremity connected a fewer questions astir nan future. Virtually each awesome institution that’s making a productivity instrumentality is incorporating immoderate generative AI characteristic aliases integrating an AI plugin aliases API. What is nan Obsidian position connected AI and productivity tools? Will you adhd features for illustration that?

So far, location are nary AI options built into Obsidian isolated from successful Web Clipper, which is intentional because it lives extracurricular of Obsidian itself. In Web Clipper, we person a characteristic called Interpreter that allows you to put successful a bunch of prompts aliases questions astatine nan clip you’re capturing a webpage, for illustration if you want to capable successful metadata astir that page aliases opportunity who nan writer is. 

Let’s opportunity you’re redeeming products because you’re doing investigation connected what podcasting microphone you want to bargain next. You could drawback each nan metadata and specifications automatically conscionable by putting successful a prompt, and it will benignant of prevention each of that. But that’s surviving extracurricular of Obsidian and it’s not astir replacing your thinking. I deliberation nan fearfulness I person pinch AI is that I don’t want it to switch reasoning successful my ain use, nan insights that I’m going to stitchery pinch a summary generated by AI.

Now, location are tons of group utilizing AI pinch Obsidian. Because of nan plugin architecture, AI is by acold nan astir celebrated class of new, up-and-coming plugins correct now. There are a batch of plugins that group are making utilizing AI. A batch of nan LLMs are very knowledgeable astir Obsidian and its API. You tin conscionable spell into Claude and say, “Hey, make maine an Obsidian plugin that this aliases that.” That’s a large situation for america because there’s a upland of plugins increasing really quickly that we request to review, and it’s happening faster than we tin support up pinch because AI makes it truthful easy to make plugins.

Oh, wow.

So, AI is decidedly being used. Our accuracy arsenic acold arsenic really it would ever make consciousness for Obsidian is that it has to fresh pinch nan principles that are successful our manifesto, which is that it would person to beryllium private. We’re not comfortable pinch nan thought that our users’ information could beryllium stored successful OpenAI servers without their consent. I deliberation a batch of devices retired location are conscionable benignant of defaulting to this emotion that there’s an arms race. We’ve sewage to put AI into everything. Let’s put a small magic fastener everywhere. I don’t deliberation that’s us. We want to springiness users assurance that their thoughts are theirs, that things are not going to beryllium utilized to train nan adjacent LLM.

That said, I do deliberation AI tin beryllium really powerful for definite uses. So nan mobility is, successful nan agelong term, do we extremity up giving an API to nan plugin organization truthful that they tin build those types of functionalities much easily? Right now, we’re not moving connected it. We’ve been holding disconnected and watching what’s going on. We don’t consciousness a consciousness of urgency to abruptly put each these things successful location because, to beryllium honest, nan plugin ecosystem is location for you and you tin do it if you really want that. There are things overmuch much important to america connected nan privilege database that we want to activity connected first, that we would alternatively group our clip speech for pinch our constricted capacity.

Let’s talk astir nan mean to semipermanent early of Obsidian. What does it look for illustration erstwhile 95 percent of its features are built? What do you dream it does that it can’t rather do today?

The sands are ever shifting. We person operating systems that are changing. We’re built connected apical of macOS, Windows, Linux, iOS, and Android. We person to support Obsidian moving connected each those platforms. That activity is never-ending and challenging. But it’s difficult to ideate what would hap first: we tally retired of ideas and features aliases thing radically different comes on that group want to usage alternatively of Obsidian. I person this constituent of position that Obsidian is not needfully going to past forever. 

There’s going to beryllium a constituent successful clip — I don’t cognize if it’s successful 5 years, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years — wherever we’re not going to beryllium utilizing these nonstop aforesaid kinds of apps. I don’t cognize what is going to switch it, aliases if we’re moreover going to beryllium utilizing computers successful nan aforesaid way. Interfaces whitethorn alteration very radically. I’m not judge what it is. I do consciousness assured that nan files you create will extremity up being really important successful that caller world. We’re seeing that pinch AI really because it turns retired that each of nan LLMs speak Markdown and are utilizing it down nan scenes because it’s conscionable plain text, and that’s what LLMs are bully at. 

But I don’t cognize nan reply to your question. It’s difficult to ideate a world wherever we wholly tally retired of ideas. It seems much apt that we will conscionable dice of aged property arsenic an app. Maybe 5 years from now we will person immoderate different thought for an app that we want to activity on. But it’s difficult to ideate conscionable moving retired of things to activity on.

What’s nan adjacent point that you’re moving on?

Right now, it’s a characteristic called Bases. The thought is that you tin shop properties, aliases metadata astir nan existent file, successful Obsidian notes. For example, if I person a statement astir Decoder, I mightiness put nan sanction of nan big and a database of episodes. For each section that I want to return notes on, I mightiness constitute down which guests were on, what day it came out, aliases nan section number. What Bases allows you to do is visualize a definite benignant of statement arsenic a array aliases yet arsenic a Kanban position aliases different type of view. So, it’s for illustration a visualization furniture connected apical of nan information that you already have. We conscionable make it really easy to create that database from nan bottommost up.

It’s benignant of for illustration a backward database because each nan information is already successful there. You’re conscionable looking astatine it and saying, “Show maine each notes that person nan ‘books’ tag,” for example, aliases a nexus to “Casey.” Then, I get a array and past I person each my metadata, which I tin edit. It’s rather powerful if you’re personification who enjoys search books that you read, aliases nan movies that you watch, nan places that you go, nan articles you’ve read. You tin very easy create these structures aliases do task management. 

So, we’re having a batch of nosy pinch that. It’s been measurement much celebrated than we expected. It’s presently successful beta, truthful hopefully we will beryllium releasing nan first nationalist type successful nan adjacent future. Then, I expect that we’re going to beryllium moving connected this until nan extremity of nan twelvemonth aliases moreover longer because nan feedback has been truthful positive.

Well, if you want to nonstop immoderate of those notes that you took astir me, I tin return a look and fto you cognize if location are immoderate errors.

Yes, nary problem. Just don’t get excessively obsessed pinch tweaking nan fonts and everything.

[Laughs] I’ll effort not to. I’m ever astatine consequence of doing that. Steph, convey you truthful overmuch for joining america today.

Thank you, Casey. It was great.

Questions aliases comments astir this episode? Hit america up astatine decoder@theverge.com. We really do publication each email!